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Warick: Welcome to the marketers club podcast. The show all about helping you work smarter earn more and accelerate your success. And now here's your host Paul McCarthy
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Paul: So hello and welcome to Episode 25 of the markets club podcast. I am your host Paul McCarthy and I'm here to help you market your talent so you can earn what you're worth and ultimately make more of a difference in the world. Great to have your company again for another show. Now this one is one that's close to my heart. One that I was really curious about and I wanted to share with you. What do you think is one of your most vital business and life tools. It's one of those things that's gonna make a big difference that you might not really ever pay attention to. Well the answer is your voice your voice is a huge guider of your levels of success about the way you express yourself in the world how seriously people take you to the level of confidence they gain from you just through the pitch the tone the sound the way you deliver your message. So I was curious about just how powerful the voice is as an old musician as a singer in a rock band. Music was something that was close to my heart but I really never learned the proper techniques of singing until I'd been singing for quite a long time and then I started to go off and get some lessons and had an interesting experience as I was going through that.
00:01:47:07 - 00:02:29:13
Paul: But I've wanted to get the expert in voice on the line and to have a chat. So I've asked Dr. Louise Mahler to join me for this show to talk about how we can use our voice to expand and drive our careers how we can become more successful as marketers as business owners as entrepreneurs as people by being able to express ourselves more clearly and to understand how much control we have over our voices and what impact it has on those that we speak to. So I don't want to keep you waiting any longer. Let's dive into my conversation with Dr. Louise Mahler. So Louise welcome to the marketers club podcast. Great to have you on the program.
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Louise: Thank you for having me.
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Paul: Oh it's my pleasure. I'm a big fan. I think you know I'm a big fan of your work and I love learning from you. So I was keen to have a chat about all things voice and and really about body language the whole thing about communication how do we become better communicators and you're one of the best. Not only in this country but on the planet about teaching people how to do this so well let's go to the experts and have a chat about some of these elements of voice. So I guess let's kick off. Why is it important for us to really understand and develop our voice.
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Louise: Well two sides to the story. One side is that you know for actually the side we often look at is communicating with others and having a voice that is the voice of influence. And if your voice first of all isn't your voice there's a problem. And second of all then how do you use it is important. And the other side. So it's important for influencing people and sending the right impression. But the other side is actually that is that voice is a huge tool of personal development and developing your voice. You know I believe vocal dynamics echo phsyco dynamics which brings you voice is who you are and if you are not producing your voice you're not producing the full expanse of who you are.
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Paul: So what causes people do you think to sort of if you like choke off their voice and not really express themselves fully.
00:04:01:15 - 00:05:25:19
Louise: Everything in life. So you know the American Indians would say the greatest challenge of adult life is to inhabit the body with sound which means you know to bring your full voice to the engagement. So everything you know there are long term drip drip drip traumas and then there are immediate traumas. So you know the drip drip drip trauma maybe over the last week we heard Craig Kelly you know criticising a somebody who's an interviewer or is it simply a stupid weather girl. Whereas in fact she had a PHD in physics you know hum and meteorology but that drip drip drip can put people down over time and then we have the bushfires you know something traumatic like that can close the the throat. So you you need to be basically fighting it at all times fighting the closing of ropes you know Jesus said to the man who couldn't speak you know I'm not a great follower of any particular religion but fascinated by what people say that is important and Jesus did not say to the man who couldn't speak open your throat the throat is as open as it ever will be the day you were born. He said let your throat be open. In other words you know you are given all the talent you have the day you born. It's not a matter of opening it's a matter of not blocking it.
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Paul: So that's the reality. It's already there. And we chock it off.
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Louise: And everybody has it.
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Paul: So in terms of I guess this podcast guys that's a lot of people who are working in marketing they're running their own businesses. They're entrepreneurs. So I'm working as we were talking about offline on a new book on finding brand voice of helping people to express themselves who they are and to draw people with them. So let's talk how do we how do we start this journey here. We start to find our voice.
00:05:56:16 - 00:07:11:26
Louise: Well you know my book resonate. Talks about the seven blockages to sound and you can not divide up voice and body. You know the voice is just the body through which air flows is to give you voice. So you know they're inextricably linked. So what are the blockages. Well how you line up your body your posture is important because if the tube is not straight the air can't come out you know it gets blocked. And then for many of us the eye can beat the the tube can be straight. But then when we go to become powerful we may do something you know that blocks that in some way. So what are your strategies for lining your body up and making sure that you maintain that all the time you know through anger situations power situations everything there, you know funnily enough you will. It's all about getting a flow out in a tube that is unblocked you know that that's the thing. So actually how do you manage your hands is important to seek out without using your hands. His vocal suicide.
00:07:14:00 - 00:07:49:09
Louise: You see air is guided by arm flow. If you don't want to run out of bricks you have the your hand continuing to flow until the end of the sentence. You know hands guide air flow. There's no question about that. You find that in singing all the time. I mean that's kind of common knowledge. Nobody sings with their hands still. So leaving your arms. Eyes. Funnily enough if you let your eyes wandering you're learning preference areas. It takes that voice off you know it does. I've got a visual preference and if I'm not thinking of it You know I don't know. And that's not my best look.
00:07:51:08 - 00:08:46:08
Paul: What's the psychological impact I guess for my listeners point of view when people are accessing the full voice I'm in. But when I owned a call centre one hundred years ago now but and we learnt and taught and I guess you can correct me if we're off the mark here but we found that there was a greater success if we could get people to lower their tone rather than speaking high times because I would be taken more seriously they'd be more authoritative in there in the vocal structure. So that was pretty primitive by us. We didn't have any real science like you have behind it but we just sort of stumbled across the fact that that was a reality. So when we're communicating with others I mean whether we're the leader or whether we're trying to get somebody to buy from us whatever it may be. From a psychological point of view what are we paying attention to in terms of the impacts what's happening for the listener if we aren't controlling our voice.
00:08:46:10 - 00:10:12:12
Louise: Well there's no question about the research about leadership and the voice. This is the perception the perceived voice of leadership is low in pitch now the problem is I don't have a voice that's down there. And if I were to speak low like this I wouldn't be able to maintain it. You know I'd be going up. It's very difficult to maintain. And some people just have the gift of that sort of voice that is like that. And it is a gift really for most of us. Yes we need to understand the perception of of authority and and knowledge is a lower voice. But you can't be what you can't be. So I think that the thing we should be aiming for is not taking the voice higher. So all of these blockages that we're talking about about squeezing the throat actually take the voice higher. So if I were to higher it in my eyes would go up you know these things they take their voice higher and the throat can't take that kind of strain. So it starts to shake. The voice goes high and it's it's it's unattractive it screams What is this person hiding. Why are they escaping from their voice? So rather than lower the voice it's don't take it high.
00:10:12:21 - 00:10:16:29
Paul: Have your own natural whatever your natural low pitch is rather than...
00:10:18:10 - 00:10:31:02
Louise: Use what's natural and what's habitual. So you've got to be very clear people I know I always speak like that. That's my natural voice. Well no it's not. No it's not. That's a habitual voice
00:10:31:06 - 00:10:39:28
Paul: In, from your practical work. What have been the results so what are the sort of outcomes do you see when people learn how to do this more efficiently.
00:10:40:00 - 00:11:12:26
Louise: Well I'll tell you what they have an emotional response. So what people tend to say is I feel released you know that's a common feedback but to be able to realise you know we're so in a way we're not tuned into this area and to realise how maybe we go high when we're under stress to bring that into conscious awareness is very it gives a feeling of control. It's a good feeling of control for the individual and then the perception of others of course is is professionalism
00:11:13:06 - 00:11:18:05
Paul: We are perceived as more professional when we are managing our speaking voice?
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Louise: And we feel better we feel in control.
00:11:21:02 - 00:11:53:17
Paul: More empowered ourselves because we're controlling what's coming from us. I mean you mean you have a career as an opera singer. I was a singer in a rock band. When you talk to people about singing people will often say Oh I can't sing. Is the mechanics of a speaking voice and a singing voice. The same things that other things that play here in terms of is it again just a mental thing that people don't sing. So they say I can't or they really people just can't sing.
00:11:53:20 - 00:13:29:13
Louise: It's only in Western culture that we don't sing now. And it's a new thing really over the last sort of few hundred years. Otherwise everybody sings and everybody knew that. So what happens is there's a misconception that we're all born speaking and then you have to expand that out to singing no wrong you're way all born Singing We squash that down to a speaking voice you know it's the other way around. And so why are you blocking your singing voice and all that singing is is an expansion of range. That that misunderstanding for instance people talk about a voice boys. Voice breaking voices don't break.What happens is that a boy may have an instrument that's that big. And then when he becomes a man the instrument becomes bigger. So it's like come so sounds a bit phallic but the idea is that, here's a young boy playing a violin and could do that very well in the choir. And then somebody finds himself playing a double bass and he goes oh I can't do this therefore I lost my voice it broke rubbish. It just became big and now I know how to play the bigger instrument. You know that that's all. And for most of us there is is just a psychological void that blockage to singing. So you have to tip the larynx so the larynx gets stuck. So if you're going up you better go. Hi. Hi. Hi. Speaking voice.
00:13:29:22 - 00:14:18:09
Louise: Oh I've got to tip the larynx at the back to get a singing voice so speaking and singing very similar, you're just moving the larynx and we don't want that stuck. Now interestingly enough though these days and it is quite a recent sound. Only over the last half century. Is the sound called belting you saying you've been in the band and belting was sort of a Spanish flamenco used to do it. And now we all do it in rock rock singing and with that sort of singing the larynx tilts in the front it tilts in the front. Yes. It's a different technique all together but we call it a speaking voice singing voice belting voice and speaking and singing a very similar belting the rules change.
00:14:18:17 - 00:14:24:02
Paul: We go to the football match and we're screaming and carrying on we come back in our throat is so sore.
00:14:25:19 - 00:15:24:06
Louise: They interesting because of mental damage. I met a gentleman and he was saying all my throat is sore as an. And I was talking over the crowd as though you see that's what happens. And I'm looking at him thinking that's not what happens. That's what you chose to have happen. So what that says to me is that there was a lot of noise and he is using a strategy that is ineffective to get over noise because the culture is tough. As you know tractors. They are so tough. And to get them to swell up and hurt you have to abuse them something vicious squeezed the throat You know for some time to get them to hurt. The interesting thing is that the vocal folds themselves actually have no feeling. So you don't hurt the vocal folds you've done so much damage that that hurt is coming to the throat and you feeling it in the throat that the vocal folds you know they don't have any feeling.
00:15:24:16 - 00:15:46:10
Paul: But in terms of people talking about sore throat so is sore throat is just a technique an issue. So from your point of view as I do we we speak a lot. We used to sing a lot I don't know if you still sing much but I don't sing much anymore but. But the idea of getting sore throats from simply from use is from your point of view. That's that's not our reality.
00:15:46:12 - 00:16:50:11
Louise: You're not a reality to self-induced and you know sometimes I think I do you know long training sessions of say two days. I honestly think I don't know how people do this profession if they haven't had voice training. I really don't. And people do tend to accept it. They say I go hoarse or perhaps they get scar tissue on the vocal folds and they have nodules which you can hear and for me when listening to someone who nodules speaking like that I just go ah ah. It's like watching someone with a clearly broken leg. Walking down the street on that leg and you just stop stop stop and. And not only that if you have scar tissue that is set in. That's called nodules. You know these days you can have them removed and it's very easy. They laser them off. Open your mouth laser them off you know. I mean it's a bit more complicated. But you know there's no need for that kind of damage or soreness just total lack of understanding.
00:16:50:13 - 00:17:00:22
Paul: It's one of those things that like air we just breathe in that we don't think about it too much and I think most people have done that with their voices. That's just it is what it is and they don't think about developing a training it.
00:17:01:06 - 00:19:19:07
Louise: So there were a couple of things that have an influence one sees often you find you know you say you don't see any more but I'll bet that when you do sing You sound like your father you know and I sound like my mother. And. And why. Because we imitate. Throat shapes. So it might be that you have the same throat it may be that you imitate their throat shapes from birth and the other thing is that culturally we have different pitches. So for instance if you go you've just been overseas and you might have found if you landed in Germany when you go to Germany there's (various vocal sounds) in the airport you hear this a completely different pitch and then you come back to Australia and it's got that kind of sound (various vocal sounds). You know we take on our cultural voice as well our family voice then we have long term stress then we have the immediate stress and things to really affect us. So with the bushfires just happening I remember that after Black Saturday I worked with survivors of the Churchill bushfire. And what I found was that 50 percent of the people who were in that group told me they were losing their hearing and I researched it and I couldn't find any basis for it. I went laryngologist and they said all they probably had a lot of noise with the fires. No these people were in front of the fires in cars. The ones who escaped and maybe their relatives were behind them and got killed. But they weren't in the fire. You know sound and what I discovered was something age old in Germany called Custons syndrome and custons syndrome is where you have so much jaw tension over a prolonged period which you're going to do for stress closes your ears. Now the solution to that is open your mouth open your mouth. That's it. I want to get some of it you know a lot of people are speaking with their teeth shut and and this is caused by you know often sexual abuse very good reasons for people doing it. Does one accept that trauma or does one go right. I'm going to release that. You know this there's a lot of work to show that releasing the voice is strongly associated with psychological release
00:19:25:12 - 00:21:43:03
Paul: I'll return to my conversation with Louise Mahler in just a moment but I just wanted to talk to you for a moment about your voice and I'm not talking just about your literal voice as Louise has explained to us our literal voices are often not the best reflection of who we are. They are their habitual habits that we've developed that don't truly showcase our best selves but with work with training we can transform that. Well I believe the same is true of your brand voice the voice that you're projecting into the marketplace. You see I think many people projecting a confusing message one that's not confident one that either bores people or confuses them because of the number of messages it contains. If you've realised that your marketing message needs the work that you need to clarify your voice in the market so that you can truly connect with the audience and really position your expertise then I invite you to join me at our next brand voice workshop. Over the course of three days we will work intensely on getting your marketing message clarified helping you to build the tools and resources that are going to help you to attract the people you want into your world to build the lead magnet. That's going to position your expertise to develop a nurture sequence marketing funnels that are going to help you convert more of your prospects into customers and really position your marketing message so that your website becomes the lead generator that it should be. So if you know it's time to get to work on your brand voice then join me for our next brand voice workshop as this episode airs we are only 10 days away from our next workshop. So on the 28 of February 2020 we will be getting together for three days deep diving into helping you to put your brand voice together for full details go to the marketersclubacademy.com and you'll find all the details about the next brand voice workshop. I can promise you it will be the best three days you've invested in your business in a very long time. You'll walk away with a year's worth of marketing wrapped up and done and be able to walk into the marketplace and confidently communicate what it is that you do and who it is that you serve so again go to marketersclubacademy.com for all of the details.
00:21:43:05 - 00:22:05:11
Paul: Does it work both ways Louise, if we're going through some sort of treatments or working on ourselves that and are releasing maybe some of these old scars of our lives do our voices begin to change or do we use developing our voice as a way of releasing these stresses and tensions of our life.
00:22:05:16 - 00:22:37:23
Louise: Either or. You're absolutely right. The phrase goes. There's no vocal change without mental change. There's no mental change without vocal change. They go together. So if you if you have a voice it's very stressed and then you go and you do a lot of work and you release that psychological trauma that you maintain this voice. That voice is reinforcing that psychological trauma if you don't change the voice you haven't got rid of psychological trauma. The two will go straight back both work together.
00:22:37:27 - 00:22:54:05
Paul: So in the work that you're doing I mean you're working with lots of companies and organisations they're bringing you in. What are the focus points for organisations when they bring you to work with their leaders or their teams. What are the outcomes that they're hoping that you can help them to achieve.
00:22:54:07 - 00:23:48:22
Louise: Be heard and that the absolute worst case of not being is doing a lot of organisations people don't speak and there's some research to show that women speak 75 percent less than men in meetings. What. And then you know some people from different countries are coming into Australia and working in some of the consultancies and they come from a culture where you're seen and not heard and you don't speak and they've got clients and they want them to speak. Now you can't just say speak because actually we lose the ability to initiate sound under stress to literally go Oh hello. Under stress is harder than it looks. You know so people go (vocal sounds) and then what we choose to do is be quiet. So actually being able to get the voice out under stress this time every time.
00:23:48:28 - 00:24:13:06
Paul: Triggering a memory from up and singing in a band for some time and I thought I should go and get some singing lessons and actually develop my instrument and learn how to do these things properly and I remember the very very first lesson that I ever had. So I'd been singing for quite a while and the teacher said to me just make a sound and nothing came out. I was so self-conscious about what's answered I'm like what's the right sound you know. So it was an amazing experience to actually try and make a sound and nothing came out.
00:24:13:24 - 00:25:44:22
Louise: It's so interesting because when you get into singing you know people talk about the three on sets of sound. So there is no expert on set so you can go. (vocal sounds) That means the air starts first and then the vocal false starts have (vocal sounds) aspirin then there's glottal on set where the vocal falls back together and then the air starts. (vocal sounds) And then there's you know where where they both worked together and you can practice these four hours you know (vocal sounds) And you really think about how you want to set sound and what you need to do physically and how you need to move your arms and where your eyes need to go and how much break you need to go where you feel it in your body. And then I find I come into corporate world and people are sitting around. Yeah ged ay well some of the key things I'd like and I'm thinking what is your strategy for sound. People go (vocal sounds) and they can't speak at all. It's not impossible. We can do this but you have to think about it. You have to know what you're doing. And we are left like you know desperate prisoners in a cell by not being told this information. We people had no idea what they supposed to be doing. And everyone says oh this is what I do naturally. So naturally habitually stop it.
00:25:46:01 - 00:26:35:15
Paul: And these are my words I know. No one's really ever trained or offered to try and any of us I don't think until someone like you comes along and starts pointing these things out to us and we go Oh wow. These aren't natural things that are a habitual things. So just taking that on board first and foremost as public speakers as we both are many people in the world are terrified of the idea of standing in front of a group of people and speaking. So what is the process for creating comfort for people to communicate like that. Are we dealing only with the voice or are we dealing with a bunch of psychological things that are going on that are causing them to feel so nervous. You know when somebody is voice quivers and what have you. Well their knees are knocking because they're standing in front of a group. So what's how do we. How do we help people through a process of presenting in front of a group.
00:26:35:22 - 00:27:39:07
Louise: You know I devote my life to this and I've got a lot of experience and study that backs it up and I've got ideas that are quite controversial in that I believe there are different stages of the process and that when we talk about relaxation taking a deep breath that I believe those strategies are a catastrophe for people facing crisis. And I've proven this over and over and over. In fact those strategies are for well before an event. So the psychological strategies the relaxation strategies the deep breathing strategies. So that's three months before an event a week before an event. The minute you are at an event if you've got performance anxiety and a lot of people don't know it but do have performance anxiety. I've had it all my life. I've had it since I was five. Worst case scenario and that's why I'm kind of devoted to it. You know heal thy self you know the thing is before an event you can become completely paralysed with fear.
00:27:39:09 - 00:30:06:20
Louise: Now what happens there is that the major thing is the diaphragm jams and you can say to somebody take a deep breath until the cows come home. There is nothing that will allow that diaphragm to unjam that will give you a deep breath and all people do is raise their upper body and make it worse and worse and worse. So take your deep breath is a disaster for someone with performance anxiety. Secondly we talk about relax what's relaxing about present you tell me what is relaxing. Standing in front of thousands of people and I have to be funny now. Be funny and really and be exactly 60 minutes and have a climax and finish and engage people. And what you know there is nothing that is not stressful about this situation and relaxing is not the aim. The aim is to move the excitement energy to the right parts of the body that are affective and not into the wrong parts of the that means the throat and jaw, you know. So the strategies well before the strategies just before performing are very different. I believe that the strategies is just before physically how to actually work on the breath out work on kicking the diaphragm free as a physical activity. And as for a mental strategy the strategies will be for maybe visualisation visualising yourself up there. You know when it comes to just before a performance. The only strategy you want is a mantra that stops all thinking. So a mantra like great opportunity great opportunity great opportunity great opportunity and the mind's going. Actually you were shit house last time NO! great opportunity, great opportunity. You know one of the things that singers do you'll find at the end of Arias. You know I think there comes the arias and there's a break and then (singing) you know And do something. The strategy there is to blank the mind because you have to say to the body look we practice this the notes there. There's nothing you can do now that you know there, You do not need any mental strategy at that stage except get out of my way. You set the body up. Bang. And the voice comes out. It's not there it's not there. But it was yesterday. So it's pretty likely it will be today.
00:30:06:22 - 00:30:38:01
Paul: I remember listening to a professional golfer talk about the training that he'd done for clutch moment putting millions of dollars. And that that worked for years in fact to have a quiet mind at that moment. And it sounds like you know there's some real similarities in terms of that the training has been done and then let the mind be quiet quiet quiet so it can just go and do what it was going to do. And so it allows you this to have that that voice.
00:30:38:03 - 00:30:50:03
Louise: Yeah. But funny enough you know and people use different language but letting the mind be quiet is not necessarily relaxing. You know there is active strategy to let the mind be quiet.
00:30:50:09 - 00:31:13:21
Paul: So I'm curious about this issue around women in boardrooms as you were mentioning and being quieter. Because you've also written about invisibility and visibility and and with women leaders. So for women who are struggling to feel like they're being heard are there any other or any other things that they need to think about or is it the same for men and women are the same issues or different issues.
00:31:14:03 - 00:32:26:13
Louise: They're same strategies for men and women. The issue is that women we are behind the eight ball with the pitch of the voice because a woman's voice is basically on average an octave higher than a man's voice which means that that whole perception of authority is we don't have it the boardroom table he who yells loudest wins. That's it. You know if the yelling like this and what do you think Louise and so do you. Well I think one of the key things. What was that. You know nobody wants to hear it. So first of all you've got to make sure you've got a good clear sound out actually when it comes to being heard. Pitch of voice is one of a hundred things that you can do. So there are other techniques that we can do that we can use but we're blind to them. So for instance you find that movement followed by static attracts attention. So I'll just do a little joke here but it may be that you move away and then go Oh hi. Look one of the things I wanted to say you know that movement is suddenly appearing and how you do that at a table is to rocking and then stop, look I actually had something I wanted to contribute attracts attention.
00:32:57:20 - 00:33:29:00
Paul: Great tips. One we haven't thought about it but just how many strategies there are that we could start applying that would give us more power more confidence be allowed... allows us to be taken more seriously simply by making these sorts of adjustments. But they are things that take practice. They're going to need to get proper training and thinking about that if people are interested in learning more from you. What are their options of staying in touch with you finding out more. How do they get access to some of the books you've written. What's the best way for them to connect with you.
00:33:29:09 - 00:34:07:09
Louise: Website LinkedIn Facebook. I have my passion is to get the content out to 2020 to just deliver deliver deliver content content content. So I had one book Resinate I hope to publish two other books this year invisible and hard chat and. And I have a digital program. I'm speaking. You stay in contact. I'm posting on LinkedIn twice a day. So that's that's the major forum. Contact me email [email protected] I'm very keen to help people work through that change plan. What are you doing now. What could you be doing. How are you going to practice it.
00:34:07:17 - 00:34:18:14
Paul: Well Louise it's been absolute pleasure chatting to you and getting all of these incredibly valuable insights and helping us to improve our voice and be heard. So thank you so much.
00:34:18:16 - 00:34:19:13
Louise: Thanks Paul.
00:34:19:19 - 00:35:27:03
Paul: I hope you enjoyed that episode with Dr. Louise Mahler as much as I did. And it's really fascinating now you think just to start to think about these things that we just take for granted that so many of us open our mouths and speak everyday. But we really don't think about where that voice is coming from and what it maybe really reveals about us maybe that we are shouting because we don't want to let anybody know that we're actually quite insecure or maybe we're speaking through grinding teeth because of some pains of our past that we are trying to keep it buried in there. Maybe we're so lacking in confidence that we find it difficult to find any voice at all. But your true voice that real person inside you is the one that we are looking to extract out the world will be all the richer for hearing who you truly are what you've really got to say what you've got to share. We're only on this planet for a very short period of time so we don't want to choke off our voice and rob the world of hearing what it is that you have to say.
00:35:27:05 - 00:36:59:09
Paul: So I hope that this episode is in some way encouraged you to dig deeper to realise that some of the habits the patterns that habitual things that we're doing maybe don't serve us and that with some work that we can dig deep and we can find our true voice and start to express exactly who we are and start to make. As Steve Jobs said our dent on the universe so great to have your company again for another episode of the marketers club Podcast Episode 25. We are a quarter of a way to our first century and loving every minute of it. So I hope that you're enjoying the shows as much as I am enjoying bringing them to you. Thank you again for the kind words that I get every week from people emailing in new listeners that have found the program to all the people that take the time to review it and to share it. I really appreciate you sharing the show. Obviously that's really the only way a program like this grows is that you take a moment to think of somebody that might need to hear this particular message whether it's this episode or one of the past episodes or one of the future episodes that are coming and you think that somebody needs to hear it it's through your generosity of sharing that out with somebody in your world that really helps the program to spread and hopefully bring value to others as it does so thanks again for listening. I wish you all the very best of luck with your businesses. But much more importantly with your lives until next on take a bye for now