00:00:00:07 - 00:01:02:18
Paul: They say in life that there's only two certainties. Death and taxes. But I think we could easily add at least one more to that. And that would be pressure. Difficulty challenges issues. We all are going to face them. We all do face them. They come in different shapes and sizes. But there's always a challenge to be overcome. And we have to have the ability particularly when we are running our own business or making the decision to go into business. How will we overcome the various challenges we're going to encounter along our journey. Some will stop us for a moment. Some will stop us dead in our tracks and we need a way to bounce back from these challenges to be resilient in the face of the difficulties that we will face not only in our businesses but in our lives. So in this episode I've invited good friend Michael Licenblat to join me to share some insights about how we can remain resilient in the face of challenging times. So before we dive into my conversation with Michael here's the intro
00:01:13:22 - 00:01:32:21
Warick: Welcome to the Marketers Club Podcast. The show all about helping you work smarter earn more and accelerate your success. And now here's your host Paul McCarthy.
00:01:32:23 - 00:02:40:19
Paul: So welcome to Episode 21 of the Marketers Club podcast I am your host Paul McCarthy and I'm here to help you market your talent so you can earn what you're worth and ultimately make more of a difference in the world. Great to have you company again. And this episode is really about helping us on an emotional front how do we bounce back from stresses the challenges particularly running a business we know we're going to be faced with lots of difficulties but I guess difficulties are a part of our lives and how well we manage those things that get thrown at us really determines how far we can go and what sort of levels of success that we're going to endure. But you know we're right now suffering some real challenges in in Australia with bushfires raging on all fronts. So these are challenging times and we are showing great resilience in the face of those challenges. But on a day to day basis in life we are going to have to be able to bounce back. So I've asked Michael Licenblat to join me and share some strategies with you about how can you stand tall in the face of some of the challenges that are going to come your way. So let's dive into my conversation with Michael.
00:02:40:21 - 00:02:45:17
Paul: So welcome to the markets club podcast. Michael great to have you on the call. Thanks for joining me.
00:02:45:19 - 00:02:46:14
Michael: Thank you for having me here.
00:02:47:20 - 00:04:12:10
Paul: Always a pleasure to chat. Mike we've been friends for a long time and I've always admired the work that you do so I was keen to have a chat about an area that I know will be of great value to to all the listeners and that is conversation around resilience and how do we stay resilient in difficult times. I mean as we're recording this Australia's faced one of its worst bushfire disasters in the countries been on fire. We've had people losing lives properties firefighters everywhere animals lost half a billion of them so we have as a country been under the pump and people have shown great spirit and generosity to support each other through that. But of course at some stage that will come to an end and then there's gonna be a whole lot of businesses that have to as well as people who have to bounce back from the stress of doing that. So I thought we really timely to get you on and talk about this because you've helped so many people to develop the skills both in business and in life to bounce back from hardships and challenges in day to day life as well as extreme challenges. So I thought let's have a chat about that so let's let's talk a little bit about this whole area of resilience and how we can as you like to say kind of pressure proof ourselves so give us a little insight into some of the steps or things we're going to need to start to think about if we want to become a little bit more resilient under pressure.
00:04:12:25 - 00:06:40:12
Michael: Yeah I reckon Paul, the first important distinction for anyone to make is their understanding of when we talk about resilience it's a term that gets thrown around quite loosely and quite readily nowadays but it has different meanings to different people. So in this particular context it's really important to understand what the definition of resilience is and too often it is mistaken with just being tough in terms of you can throw anything at me and I will handle it. I will cope I will get through and I think that's very typical of your 1960s, 1970s or 1950s kind of thinking just toughen up get over it and there's and it's very much Army thinking and there's great value in that. Don't get me wrong you know part of resilience is your ability to endure and keep balancing back and keep managing. But the reality is that that is not the only aspect if we're looking at resilience as a tool to be the best version of yourself and not just how to cope and get through but to be the best version of yourself to bring the best qualities out when the conditions are at their worst. We've got to do more than just toughen up and now the nature of pressure has also changed as well in the last 10 to 15 years the world is faster more accessible there's more pressure as you mentioned we've got these atrocious fires that are going through we're just tearing through lives we've got a lot of new pressures that we just didn't have 10 15 years ago which means that the way that we handle that pressure has to evolve as well. So resilience is not just about endurance it's got to be also about bringing best version out of you because anyone can cope we can cope at a cost and we want to do is make sure that you're not just coping but you are thriving and the difference I see here if you put it in terms of from a personal side is that you are able to handle whatever challenges life throws at you but without burning yourself out in the process without selling your soul without actually feeling there's nothing left of you that's still after all you've been through. You are still enjoying what you're doing but energy and focus and passion and what you do if we put that in terms of a business sense it means that no matter what setbacks failures rejections you face you've got the ability to come back but come back better.
00:06:40:21 - 00:07:15:02
Michael: So let's just recover and cope. But you're bouncing back and the whole concept of pressure proof is not one of perfection but rather that pressure becomes a friend rather than a foe it's something that you understand so that when you're under pressure you're a better version of yourself and you're not just coping to get through. So that's the distinction I want people to understand. That number one anyone can cope some cope better than others but I don't want you just to cope.
00:07:25:29 - 00:08:10:06
Paul: Well I love the definition and thank you for sharing that with us. I think I am hearing you know that it's not just about being stoic and Yep and that's what life's about and I'm just gonna take my lumps but but that we can find the best of ourselves through that pressure which is great because I mean I think that as you say there are some people that perform and really do fire up under pressure. You see them performing at higher levels. They take it in their stride. They really do it. So what I'm hearing is this connection to perfection because you know that I'm a fan of the Ready Fire Aim the move before perfection you know that it doesn't have to be perfect that we need to be ready to take action and just learn from those things.
00:08:46:20 - 00:10:58:12
Michael: One of the core things is to emotionally get over it quickly get over the setback that I've been a challenge get over the failure get over what you have a problem you face never really get over it quickly. The reason why I say that is because emotion drives decisions. The longer we sit in a negative emotion the longer we sit in a negative state the more impact that has over our decision that can be anything from Shall I call someone now or should I just reply to an e-mail shall I do what I need to do you know and approach the clients and do the tough work or shall I hide in other admin work or I need to kind of be able to handle or confront a difficult conversation I need to be able to confront where things are working so I'm going to have to do that rather than do something that is is more comfortable and emotion will tell us go where it's most comfortable. We are designed by nature to stay safe and this is obvious why. If you're in front of traffic you're about to walk out your brain says stop you're going to get hit don't do that you know don't touch a hot stove you going to burn your hand so your brain is wired to keep you safe but it's also why to keep you emotionally safe as well. Which means at the moment you're threatened to face a rejection to look stupid to look embarrassed like you don't know what you're doing. Part of your brain says hey don't say that don't make that call don't go have that meeting don't do that because you're going to look stupid and it will feel bad. So we are designed to stay safe. The problem with that is it means that we don't stretch the comfort zone to get out and do the necessary work. So one of the most important things is not to let emotion decide our action. We've got to be able to bring logic to the table because emotion will always turn out faster. And one of the ways we do that is by turning the intensity down and getting over things quickly and realising that when we're making decisions we've got to separate the emotional How do I feel about this compared to what do I need to do. And if the question is how do I feel I'm feeling really anxious I'm feeling like I don't know what I'm doing I'm feeling overloaded yes but if I separate that from what do I need to do.
00:10:58:14 - 00:11:44:12
Michael: I've got to now make these calls and if I can separate the two it allows intelligent people well educated people who have sometimes stopped by basic negative emotion and allows them to make progress and I say it that way because a lot of people that you and I would deal with are people who have gone through and run businesses they've done courses they've gone to university they've got education behind them. But it's basic negative emotion fear that will stop them from implementing what they do even if they learn more technique and I learn more strategy. It's basic fear that will stop them from making good decisions. So no one is to separate the logic from the emotion and so that you can start making good decisions under pressure.
00:11:44:20 - 00:13:59:07
Paul: Well it makes sense and I think I mean we are all hard wired to avoid pain so we often do that I think is the term akrasia that comes from sort of Aristotle that is where we do things against our own better judgment where we continue to do things even though we know it's not the thing we should be doing so as you are saying we might bury ourselves in something that's not helpful because it's going to stop us from facing the challenge the pain and pushing through that. But I think sometimes too we forget that when we're hit with a crisis and particularly in business you know I'm thinking of the fabulous couple that I've worked with. Deb and Craig you run a wonderful holiday park called D.C. on the lake who suffered an incredible setback in the tornado that ripped through the Yarrawonga and Mulwala region and completely destroyed their park and so they had to start again. But even in that moment of starting and they've rebuilt an incredible business and encourage anybody to get down there to DC on the lake and take a look for yourself of just what they've done it's absolute phenomenal. But what they've been able to do is that they recognise that we've had this massive setback but they didn't have to start from zero because they built up a bank of experience that had I started but what I got to do is start fresh. They've got to start new. And they launched from that point and they've got to work on on doing that. And now they've built this multi award winning park from that was in ruins only a few years ago. So there was a great example to me of people that were able to bounce back and have real resilience in a moment of true setback. And I know that as I say with the as the fires raged there's gonna be a lot of people that are going to be in similar sort of head spaces to them doing that. But in terms of the challenges that we get and bouncing back from things it is the things that we can do also to be proactive in preventing sort of the burn outs and the stresses and getting ourselves into a state that we've got to bounce back from one of the things that we can do proactively to to maintain well-being as well along the way.
00:13:59:22 - 00:15:08:02
Michael: So if you're looking at personal management in that case there and you mentioned stress and I often say stress happens when we we don't manage our pressure in a way that's healthy. We allow the pressure to kick in but we're not getting pressure out with this pressure. But not enough pressure out. So one of the ways we asked in terms of what can we do is like a preemptive strike. What can we do to identify I think you've got to know your switches. You've got to know what are some of the things that are going to increase that pressure that you're going to experience so that you are prepared to let pressure out in some particular way. And there's a couple and then not necessarily your fault you personally but necessarily anyone's fault that these things are happening at number one that we are far more accessible than we ever have been before. And if you think about this in terms of business and life anywhere you go if if you want to know anything about something your phone is right there. People now have you on tap and therefore we no longer own our time. We no longer own our attention. We are constantly reactive to everything that's happening around us.
00:15:08:07 - 00:17:07:15
Michael: And what the problem with that is is that our body is designed to go from on to off onto off on two off and so forth our body chemistry works by going from different hormones and chemicals released at different times in the day to regulate the body our body temperature fluctuates by half a degree, our sleep wake cycle changes throughout the day. So the body's designed to go through cycles but because now we are more accessible we go from onto onto onto on and then we wonder why. By sort of you know 2:00 in the afternoon I'm reaching for another cup of coffee I need some sugar just to get me through and I get through my day and I'm feeling wide and rattled I'm exhausted but I can't switch off there's this pressure that comes from the demand that no one asked for but we are living in a society where everything is now immediate you know if I want and I get it now but because now you're always on and you're fully accessible. We are allowing technology to drive us and in a time now we have such high pressure we've got to work out if technology is serving us or are we a servant to it because there is an and relentless amount of information and pressure that will come through and request that would be made of you in short periods of time that technology will allow happened your job in terms of being pressure proof is deciding how it's going to serve you rather than be a servant to it. So in this case burnout tends to occur when we just go all right I'll take the final check the phone I'll check the email I checked I'm always going to be on tap and reactive. Now what we need to do is actually rather than just work fast and be reactive we've got to work a bit smarter and work out. Am I going to be sustainable at this pace over a period of time or this burned me out. So that's one of the major things is that is to recognise that you're always on and that you need to work out if you are being. If for technology's being of service to you or you be a servant to it.
00:17:08:01 - 00:18:53:27
Michael: I think secondly also is that we have an increased expected output as well. People want more from us and in shorter periods of time. In fact we live at a time now of immediate gratification. If I want something I get it now. If I want food I can get fast food I don't have to wait for white heat or cooling I hit a button for I want a lot I hit a button if I want music I don't get in the store and buy a CD I just download everything that I want right now. So we are now living in a time if I once I get it now. Your clients your colleagues your family will have that same expectation on you because that's the world that they're living in. So therefore if you are busy being everything to everyone. If you are allowing that except accessibility to be reactive to be everything to everyone and not have boundaries up then you will not maybe you will burn yourself out. You'll always feel you're chasing your tail you'll always feel there's too much to do not enough time there's no time for you because you are allowing the increased expected output to drive your productivity. Part of being pressure proof isn't about being working faster and doing more sometimes it's about what you stop doing. It's about what boundaries you put in place so that you can be the best version of yourself. And this is where the trap comes in. People feel now that they've got to be more efficient more effective spread their time in different places always on. But what that leads to is it's a symptom of the modern day society of being overly switched on and actually burning out faster. So it's really about recognising the way that you need to work and how you need to work technology boundaries and communication to get the best version of yourself out.
00:18:54:14 - 00:19:27:24
Paul: So Michael would it be fair to say that for a lot of people that they feel those pressures that you're talking about those boundaries that are being pressed and pushed all of the time outside of their control so that when we think about the sort of locus of control whether it's internal or external or that if we don't really feel empowered like I'm controlling it where I feel like my clients are pushing me around my my boss is pushing me around. These are things that are beyond my control that I've got I've got to comply to.
00:19:46:13 - 00:21:37:11
Michael: Yeah and there are some circumstances that you simply can't change. There are certain deadlines certain expectations that you simply can't change and have to fit in. However having said that I don't want to dismiss that. That's that's the case. However people will treat you according to the standards that you set for yourself and I'll say that again people will treat you according to the standards that you set for yourself. They will push you harder if you are not. If you're a yes person if you haven't practiced setting your boundaries. If you haven't had the guts to have a clear conversation to say actually to do all of that I've got to let go of something let me know what you mean to let go of to actually have the courage to have those difficult conversations. And this is where the challenge is is that if I want to just be resilient and tough then what I do is I just take what's being thrown at me and I work hard and sometimes you have to. But often it comes as a result of your own habits that you haven't set those standards and is clarity around how to have those conversations how to push back and rather than say oh you say this I say this you say that people need to understand that for them to have simply the courage to push back is the first step to make the decision. I'm going to have this conversation to do it respectfully without anger again separate the emotion from the logic but to actually have the decision they're going to have this conversation and be clear about what they can and can't manage will and won't do is an incredibly important step. That's when we start to reclaim power. That's when pressure becomes our friend rather than our foe is when you actually start to respect yourself and be very clear about what you can and can't do. What you are willing and not willing to do rather than just comply with the world.
00:21:37:13 - 00:23:16:27
Paul: We're not sparring for a life without pressure because I think a life without pressure is called dead isn't it. I mean there's you know that there's always elements of pressure and it's just whether those pressures are positive and stretching you and helping you grow and bringing as you were pointing at the best of you out or whether the pressures that you feel that are controlling you that they are dominating you that they are dragging you off course. I'm wondering you know where the line between clarity of focus purpose and resilience meet. Because if I don't know where I'm going then everything can feel like a pressure. I mean when you get that feeling of anxiety that comes when you're running late for a meeting and you get every red light and you feel like the world's against you you know like hows my luck. Everything is testing you and pressuring you in creating a requirement of some sort of resilience. But is the clarity of focus purpose and and therefore the ability to maintain resilience because I suspect that some of the people that I know that have faced you know real hardships also had a really clear picture of what they were trying to achieve and that was strong enough to pull them through. So you know as Viktor Frankl talked about you know that you have to have the meaning that the strength of the why that pulls you in times of great challenge. Can you talk to me a little bit about where this line sits for you in terms of how important it is have clarity of meaning and purpose when we're faced with challenges and resilience.
00:23:17:01 - 00:24:59:06
Michael: And this I think there's two parts to that no one is making sure you've got a destination worth chasing as you said one of the important things. Anyone who's bounced back is that they know where they're going. And everyone needs to know what the purpose is what did what they go what they're driving for but it's going to be more than just oh I know I've got to achieve so I'm going achieve this or achieve that. It's going to be something that's palatable something which is emotional in which they really want to achieve because that's what drives that's what brings out grit and determination that can be given to you you may find yourself in some circumstances but really that's got to come from you. It's a decision of what you want to achieve. But without that without having something that's going to drive you pressure will throw you around it becomes sort of like your steering wheel you know insanely it becomes like your true north it keeps you on track that when life throws you around you know why you're doing this you know how to get yourself back on track because I'm chasing this goal. I'm focused on this outcome and it's got to be something that really speaks to you something which brings you alive and gets you out of bed each day. If it doesn't do that pressure will just make you feel stressed and angry and tired rather than hey I can manage that because I'm going in this direction. Part of that also is that it's not just about being passionate about being focused. It's also the ability that when you are thrown a couple of curveballs when you are thrown obstacles that you're able to keep them in perspective as well. And what will happen is that when we're under pressure our focus becomes very inward. We actually start looking more at ourself being in the centre of all these challenges.
00:24:59:08 - 00:26:34:25
Michael: We can't see the forest from the trees and as a result of that we feel that problems are actually bigger than they actually are. We lose perspective between what's a real problem and what's the system. A significant inconvenience as you mentioned you know you can have deadlines and meetings and I'm caught in red lights and all this stuff is stressful unless of course you kind of put yourself in the position of someone who's just lost their house because the fires have gone through and you go mate, compared to you I don't have a problem. In fact I've got a lucky person's problem. The stuff that I've got to deal with. You know most people around the world some people in the world would give their left arm to have the problems that I deal with. And when you're able to do that you can bind passion and focus with perspective because if you just go passion you get intense and you allow the stress of pushback to weigh you down and to create tension and exhaustion and sometimes being unwell. But when you combine passion with perspective yeah yeah I'm driven but I also get the fact that the problems that I've got they're good problems. You know of all the problems that I could have been on a bad one it's kind of like the old saying I complained I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet. We've got to realise that the problems we have got a good problems and when you combine those two you tread burn out a lot more consciously and you travel through pressure lighter as well. This is one of the important things. With pressure is to be light with us.
00:26:34:27 - 00:27:40:25
Paul: It's reminding me that we did an interview. It's Episode 13 with with Mike Rolls and Mike suffered you know struck down with meningococcal and lost the his his legs below the knees and he speaks around the world about really how to be resilient in the face of some of these issues and this is great expression where you know that often we will get caught where we're saying why me and and he prefers to say okay what's next. Let's let's move on to the next. Let's not dwell on this let's let me move my focus to what I need to focus on next and I'll I'll I'll put a link in the show notes to that episode with Mike as well because it's a fabulous story of personal resilience that he went through. But it sounds to me that you're talking about exactly that same thing start to think about what's next rather than dwelling on what I have and get some perspective about. Well I'm still here. You know I'm still breathing.
00:27:41:00 - 00:28:32:07
Michael: So Mike spoke at one of my kids schools last year and my oldest came home and he quoted exactly that line why me. Compared to what's next and my oldest Rafi he said you know he just put it in such a clear way that helps you. He didn't say the words reframe the way he meant was kind of reframe what you're looking at. And I actually met Mike last year talking like a compliment and his wonderful impact on the talk that he had that my kids walked away with this wonderful perspective that the problems they've got can be problems or it can be opportunities depending on how you frame it and I said be thankful for him giving that kind of viewpoint to them at this young age. But I think that viewpoint can be taken at any stage of challenge is how you're going to relate to pressure you know whether you had to fight it or whether it's going to be your friend.
00:28:32:27 - 00:29:22:23
Paul: Yeah and I think this is part of it if I'm hearing you correctly Michael is that a lot of people you can fall into the trap of defending the very things that you want to move away from and and building up you know as my father in law taught me you know you can have excuses you can have results you just don't get to have them both and if you spend your energy your focus your time defending the things you don't want you kind of just get more of them. So we if we want part of if I'm hearing you correctly part of our ability to improve our resilience improve our ability to bounce back fast from things is not to linger in that emotional moment to to really sit back step back from it get some perspective and then start building a plan about what do I need to do next to move myself forward.
00:29:24:27 - 00:32:13:08
Michael: And one of the key aspects of that is your relationship or side of failure and this concept of failing forward that when you're faced with a setback you meet it with activity rather than self-pity because that habit of getting into dealing with failure at failure is doesn't mean that you're a failure. It simply means that what you just did didn't work. And if you make it mean anything else apart from that you're just allowing failure to slow you down. Too often we make failure mean that I'm not good enough. I can't do this. I'll never do it. Everyone else is better at this than I will. And we have all this stuff that goes through our head that allows you to stay stuck and not take activity. And Paul you're one of your classic thing is ready fire aim just just get out and do stuff because through activity comes clarity sometimes you can't get clarity of overthinking things. You got to be out there doing stuff to work out what's going to work and what's not. And I know that there are many work cultures or businesses that don't allow enough space for people to try stuff or to take initiatives or be innovative fail and then improve on that. They're a perfectionist culture and the risk with that is that it creates a negative association with failure. We don't try new stuff or when things don't go right we blame someone we we cover our own backside to make sure that we know no one's blaming us. And it creates an environment of lack of innovation lack of new ideas lack of getting energy comfort zone and we need these things in life and business to progress. We just need that because that's what creates activity. I know whenever I teach business development to non sales professionals the biggest thing is just get out of your comfort zone and do a few things that you think may fail but try them anyway. And the more you practice being familiar with failure the less it's going to hurt. We know I know from my background in martial arts we know it's just it's time in the ring that you get more time in the ring that you have fighting and training the better you become at fighting you know and you can learn that by hitting a bag you only learn it by when someone hits you back you go oh that's what it feels like I now need to get ready to be on to block that encounter that. But you only get better by time in the ring you know as you know as a performer. The more that you play the guitar the stronger the calluses on your fingers it didn't bother you after a while. And it's really that kind of relationship with failure don't let failure slow you down. Fall forward into activity and a big part of that is is what you make value mean ultimately value means nothing unless you want to make it mean something.
00:32:14:04 - 00:33:49:25
Paul: Yeah. And I think that for me and what I would always encourage my clients to do is to say failure as progress as movement as we're creating movement towards what it is that we want and I think going back to a point you made a little bit earlier that this is again if you take the emotion out of it and you look at science for example when scientists fail all the time on a pursuit to find solutions and answers but they don't see it as failure they see it as a movement towards finding the solution. It's part of that journey. And interestingly I've got an episode that hasn't been released yet that I recorded with Glen Cappelli talking about creativity and innovation along these very lines that that we desperately need to encourage first for ourselves and then for the people in our teams and in our businesses to really create space for creativity for innovation for opportunities to grow and not be afraid of making mistakes because that's what we'll store a business more than anything else is when we get afraid of doing that and doing a cultural around that. So we're just about out of time. So I want to know just in terms of final thoughts around the areas of pressure proofing ourselves what we can do to bounce back as you say we're living in challenging times there's more pressures as more accessibility. So last thoughts are ideas tips for people in terms of what we can do to help ourselves stay on track and keep moving positively forward to what it is that we want to achieve.
00:33:49:28 - 00:35:02:12
Michael: So I'll summarise some of the things we've spoken about which is separate the emotion from the logic make good decisions that aren't based on just how I feel right now but rather than what I need to do. You want to make sure you've got a destination worth chasing and but also at the same time when you add perspective to passion it allows you to not burn yourself out but realise the problems we've got are often a lucky person's problems and finally that your relationship with value to file forward into activity is crucial. I remember reading a study that talked about the recruitments qualities that people are looking for in larger organisations and one of the highest qualities that one the most important qualities was their willingness to solve problems that were outside their skill set to deal with challenges to be able to deal with problems that they weren't familiar with they have the willingness to keep trying and be creative and find opportunities that they could solve this problem and they looked at this as a skill of resilience where you're not giving up but you're being creative in finding ways to solve problems and bounce back. Otherwise people will just say I don't know.
00:35:02:25 - 00:35:14:27
Paul: Michael it's been great chatting to you and I'm sure that many of the listeners would be interested in learning more from you being able to connect with you. So tell us some of the ways or things that people could connecting with you and how they can stay in touch.
00:35:15:00 - 00:36:10:13
Michael: Certainly the main website and this is where you can download a copy of the white paper that I've put together called pressure proof people. And that gives you an overview of some of the key concepts around building up your own pressure proof skills that you'll find at bouncebackfast.com bouncebackfast.com Those of you though that would like to look at the actual skill sets and start learning the skill sets around what it takes. I've put them together into a very short or concise online video program which takes a psychology principle and it distills it down into action steps and we've got a whole bunch of these that you can access and you'll find them at pressureproofprogram.com pressureproofprogram.com So that'll be the two places to look at. bouncebackfast.com and pressureproofprogram.
00:36:10:24 - 00:36:19:14
Paul: Brilliant. Thanks so much Michael for taking the time. You've got a busy schedule so I really appreciate you making time to share some ideas about how we can be more resilient. Thanks mate.
00:36:19:16 - 00:36:20:21
Michael: Absolute pleasure. Cheers.
00:36:20:23 - 00:37:45:03
Paul: I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Michael Licenblat as much as I did it's a great reminder a salient reminder of the need to keep perspective. To understand the size of the challenge of the problems and look at ourselves in the face of others. But I particularly liked Michael's line that we should need to make failure with activity rather than self pity so easy to drop into that emotional pit where we've stopped feeling sorry for ourselves or thinking that we don't have the capacities to get through them but we we do when we dig deep when we move past the emotion we can start to see that there are opportunities that we have developed the skills and the abilities to push past even some of the most challenging of times. So I hope that this recording finds you happy healthy and well and that you will. If you are facing some challenge in your life at the moment start to change your perspective start to look at what you can do to think about what's next. What can I. What action can I take that will move me in the direction that I want to go again so it's been a pleasure bringing this episode and next week I'm gonna be back with another episode where we're going to focus on creativity and how to really unlock your ability to innovate and why that's so important to your success moving forward. So until we meet again. Take care. All the very best of luck not only with your businesses but much more importantly with your lives bye for now.